James Goh, Beatrice Tan, Lim Shi Jean, Jaclyn Chong of Raffles Institution Junior College interviewed me for their school project paper on preserving culture. They gave me a transcript of that interview which I am happy to publish here for the benefit of those who seek knowledge on this matter.
It must have been a lot of work for them to type out the interview verbatim. I have decided not to edit them as its they way how I speak and spoke candidly on the matter, so bear with the repetition and broken sentences.
PW Interview
Transcript – Mr Kamal Dollah
<BJJJ>:
Our PW Group
<KD>:
Mr Kamal Dollah
BJJJ:
Why did you choose to research into batik?
KD: It
was out of curiosity, I went to school, and then to NAFA, and I was offered a few elective programmes and you know like
one of it is Chinese painting you see, so I’m always curious about
my roots, so I figured that I would rather take an elective that has
something to do with my heritage, and I figured batik was one of it,
you know? But the school didn’t offer any, so what I did was I organised
the Malay students and I organised, we got ourselves an instructor and
we started And that is like, because it is basically [about you] trying
to find your roots. You see the thing is that, the funny thing is that,
if you study art, and you say that the history of art in Singapore starts
in 1938 or something like that. Go, go, go and look it up. And it’s
like, so before the coming of the British, there was no art. Before
the setting up of the teachers college in Tanjong Malim, there was no
art. Can you accept that? I mean…
BJJJ: I
find it hard to
KD: Yea.
So I start looking. There must be remnants, I mean art is an essence
in people’s lives you know like people’s spiritual expressions and
stuff like that so well the only thing I could see, in terms of traces
of my heritage, one of it was batik, or wood carvings. But we don’t
have a history of painting you know, so maybe perhaps that’s why the
history of paintings in Singapore starts in 1930s, but I think, there
are inhabitants here much longer than that, so, so that sparked my curiosity.
And the more I question about batik, the more people didn’t want to
answer me, because what happened was that it’s a jealously guarded
secret you know, like how to do batik. And so I went about you know
looking and looking and looking and you know organising classes and
getting myself working towards that. After that, I was busy for a few
years earning my living, but you know, but always at the back of my
mind I wanted to do that, so that’s why like now, in between working
and all the other things, I every now and then come back to batik. So
you read my articles, I think I become somewhat of an accidental scholar
in this field, but, but I’m not a very academic person, but that’s
how things turn out lar, yea.
BJJJ: Your
work on batik was quite great, considering like you know Singapore hardly
has any information on batik. Your blog is one of the more, informative
ones.
KD: Uh
huh, ok. Thank you, thank you so much. The thing is that you see, when
you, when you study about batik, the funny thing is that, uhhh, batik
was written mostly by westerners you see, and, and we trying to understand
batik, we have to read western books, you know. The westerners have
been writing about batik. In my research, the earliest traces was 1919,
New York publisher. It’s a school textbook on how to make batik craft
or something like that. And so, a lot of the practices is basically
influenced by books. So, even down to what happened at Malaysia, the
influence is very strongly from books. It’s not a handed down generation
practice you know. The Indonesians do it, and the Indonesians have got
their writings, but the Indonesian writings are mostly in, in old Javanese
text, and, and even then there’s not a lot of writings, because even
then, in Java, the birthplace of batik, it’s uh, how you call this,
it’s also a family guarded secret you know. So everybody guards their,
their practice you know. It’s only recently that more and more people,
westerners come to know about this, and westerners wrote about it, so
we have our reference point is from the westerner’s perspective. But,
being local, I know I could benefit into this area, that’s why I took
the opportunity in doing my master’s degree to go and penetrate into
this area and get more information out lar, and that was the thing.
BJJJ: Is
there like a master that specialises in batik?
KD: No,
I had a hard time trying to convince people I wanted to do that. The
thing is that, in Singapore’s context, most people just [don’t]
understand batik. It’s always very presumptuous. It’s not much I
can say, yea that’s the problem with us. So, what was the question?
So in terms of academics, studies, there are a few practitioners, like
myself and 2 others, artists who conduct batik classes in schools. And
so, in the sense that, so there are practices I guess like O level and
A level art. Uh, the students learn batik as a craft to be their major
project, and these are guided by a few practicing artists. Other than
that, there’s not, there’s no batik practice here, because we don’t
have any factory that produces batik you know. And that has been ever
since you know. Actually in, sometime in 1920s to 1980s there were a
few practitioners, a few factories you know. Up till 1980s there [were]
like, up to 4. Then after that, they all closed down. There’s no,
uh, there’s no industry, here. One of the reasons is because batik
is a very labour intensive industry, so being a labour intensive industry,
it cannot be produced here. Well, not saying cannot, but it’s just
not feasible you know. I mean, you compare the Indonesians, their average
salary is something like 6 dollars a day, you know, yea, and it’s
like, it’s really cheap you know, and you get really good workmanship,
craftsmanship in Indonesia, even in Malaysia. But in Singapore, it’s
just, the, the cost of living is too high so it’s not feasible for
you to do anything here. So we do not have a culture for producing batik,
but we always have a culture for wearing it, buying batik. So, Singapore
is one of the bigger consumers, like you can see the Peranakan right,
the more, the more, how you call this, the more affluent Straits Chinese,
they consume batik and especially like what we have pointed out, the
Pekalongan batik.
BJJJ: So
in our case right, for example, like in Singapore right, some people
view batik as something that needs to be conserved and preserved, and
some people see batik as part of our heritage and you still see it around,
so there’s no actual need for conservation. So, what’s your take
on this?
KD: Sorry
I don’t get you. What you mean? Both are saying the same thing what.
BJJJ: Some
people think that, uh, batik is not disappearing. Some people like us
that batik is slowly going away lar, less people are wearing it
KD: I think,
you cannot stop things from changing. Things change, you know. Uh, culture
is something you cultivate you know, I mean, that’s my understanding,
during my GP class. Alright, it’s something you cultivate, it’s
not something that you know, and, and, culture is dynamic, so, there’s
always this school of thought that culture must be preserved. Preserved
in the sense that in order, so you, you know what’s the story of the
past, but in order for culture to remain alive, it must transform. But
then, at the same time, you cannot change it until to the point that
it loses its form and it’s identity you know. So but, the, the, the,
I always say it’s my opinion that tradition and culture is dynamic
you know. So, like, like you know, around here, you see a lot of music
base, you know like traditional music right, they have to use amplifiers,
they have to use electronic things, you know, if not they cannot perform
in, in, in places like esplanade and things like that you know. They
need to use lights and effects and stuff like that. But the thing is
that the essence of culture is projected. So, that’s the important
thing. And a lot of people assume that, uh, what you call this, assume
that making of batik, there is no culture here you know. So we cannot
preserve that, because there’s none. Maybe we can start something
here, but I’m of this opinion. It’s interesting subject what you
brought out because there was some failed attempt to do what you call
a Singapore dress. Are you, are you familiar with this concept of the
Singapore dress?
BJJJ: Singapore
dress? Well, from what we know, you know the SIA, like the SIA girl
they usually wear batik, then that’s about that.
KD: It’s
not usually, it’s a uniform, and then that was part of my re-, and
then what I found, was sometimes it takes an outsider to realise who
we are. I mean, the SIA uniform was, uh, designed by a French couture,
who’s Pierre Balmain, 1972, you can look up the history of it. That’s
interesting uh, a westerner who identified us with this you know. Ah
so the thing is that you know, sometimes you look at the Singapore culture
right, what is the Singapore culture you know? Sometimes it’s like,
and there’s always during my time when I was a student you know. There
was always this issue, what is the Singapore dress, you know? When you
see Miss Universe representing Singapore you know, what does she wear?
Does the kebaya represent us? Does the cheongsam represent us? What?
Uh, so nothing seems to represent us, when we wear, so somehow rather,
uh, there was this, the late president Ong Teng Cheong, I mean he was
a person of the arts, and he proposed this, uh, batik as a formal, for
formal wear, and he was uh, he’s a champion of, to make batik successful.
I mean, the orchid motifs, and so, uh, but the project didn’t, well,
he passed, he passed on, and, and that’s sad. After he passed on nobody
continued that, that fight. So, we were almost, to me at the point,
we were close to, to, to have something that we could be proud of, you
know. And on hindsight, I think that why we failed was because first
of all there was no production base. Right? Because, the NTUC tried
to control this whole production thing. And so, uh, and this also not
good, because it’s like, you know this becomes, uh, how you call this,
it becomes so stifling uh, and then it cannot grow. And then there were
only a few practitioners, who, you know, who were supposed to come up
with this thing. So there wasn’t enough participation I would say,
that, that could not make it take off. And because we don’t have a
production base, so it was very difficult for us to come up with our
Singapore motif. And so, and then the late president Ong Teng Cheong
passed on, and then that’s it. Nobody continued that effort, you know.
And, but, it’s only that now we know, uh official functions you don’t
need to wear suit anymore you know. You can wear a batik shirt, and
that was started with Ong Teng Cheong. That’s a sad thing, my dream
is you know one day we have a Singapore dress. And and that will come
close; you know Pierre Balmain identified Pekalongan batik and Pekalongan
batik is broadly termed as, as Persisiran batik which is coastal range,
the word coastal, batik. And it’s uh, it’s uh, distinctive with
all these white dots, that’s uh, Pekalongan, or, or Persisiran pattern.
And so, well, the Singapore Girl goes around the world, and presents
Singapore like that, right? And so, technically that becomes the Singapore
dress. You know, like it or not. But some people argue that’s not
batik, because, that’s printed you know. But that’s, that’s, that’s
just being too, too connoisseur you know. So it’s like, that’s not
important I think. And what’s very sad, is that we don’t have that,
that, that, because Singapore is always very pragmatic. We are, we are
always being too practical, we want everything fast, we never really
look at the essence of what we really, what we really need you know.
The essence of what we really need is soul, and we don’t have the
soul. We want to buy everything, import everything, you know, you, you
can’t. There’s certain that we have to, it have to come from us
you know. And we, and what comes out is not perfect, you have to live
with the flaws, and eventually becomes perfect you know, not, not everything
must be perfect you know. You want everything perfect, you [have to]
import! Then you got all the imported Thailand and whatever and, and
so ok let’s not go into that because this is a recording. See the
sad thing is that we don’t have really a Singapore identity and I
think that batik is very interesting, because when you say batik, we,
I don’t really see it so much as Peranakan, because Peranakan is a
community, a small community. I see it more as the Malay. But then ok,
now the thing is that then a lot of people would trace it to the Malay
you see, and now then it becomes this is not a Chinese thing. So, but
actually if you look at the history of batik and especially what batik
has evolved, and taking into contact the Pekalongan batik and the Perisiran
batik, it is an acculturation, that means it has many cultures included
into it. So Because you see, it has the Chinese motifs because when
we talk about peranakan, the peranakan is not just the straits Chinese,
it is the early Chinese settlers in the malay world and they people
are also located in Indonesia, in area like in Lasalle, I mean the north
coast of Java, like this including Pekalongan is one of them. You have
a lot of Chinese settlers they in fact they were cut off from the mainland.
And eventually they all start to adopt local practices, you understand?
So actually the Peranakan in Indonesia don’t call themselves peranakan,
they just accept themselves as Chinese, so that’s why we are cut off
because when we say Peranakan we always refer to the straits Chinese.
Because of colonisation right, we always refer to the British states
we forgot about the Chinese community in Indonesia. The Chinese
community in Indonesia and also successful business people and some
of them went into the batik trade and they you see that the batik they
produce does not have principality design, that is loyalty design or
tradition motif, when you look at motif, and the motif is the part of
the culture, the heritage and you could identify the things where these
things come from. And so the Chinese adapted their Chinese culture or
the Chinese graphics like the clouds and stuff like that. So, they adapted
all these things for themselves and they have patterns like birds bees,
no bees, and butterflies in their designs and that is being consumed
by the Chinese or the peranakan people. These are expensive things you
know, it took 2 years to make one piece of cloth. They wax very fine
details on both sides. Which is really not necessary but they will do
it on both sides. So it’s very interesting. I have a book here, maybe
you can look it up in the National Library or somewhere. I have
a lot of books lar, but this is just one I brought. Even this
is written by an English lady.
BJJJ :
Oh cool!! Can I copy the title down?
KD : Huh?
Batik Fabled Cloth of Java. As you can see this is butterflies
This is typical peranakan batik. Very fine details. I believe
it takes up to 2 years for them to make something like this. So you
see this is peranakan batik. I wonder if they have any local (flips
through the book). OK. If you can see like this, this is more traditional
design. Traditional design is the more like klengenan. But you
can see even this lion has more Chinese influence. We can identify this
as Cirebon, another area where there is Chinese community there, and
we can see the cloud where we call the “happy cloud”.
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : The
cloud. The chinese cloud motif become the Javanese cloud motif,
we call the mega mendung. So you see there is a lot story to be told
when you look at these things, like the bird, phoenix, in batik. So
these are all Chinese makers. And because you know a Muslim person doesn’t
generally wear living things, know, they wear flowers, or patterns or
geometric and things like that, because in general they are against
depiction of life. You know, like drawing faces, or animal and stuff
like that because it is considered like you are worshipping certain
kind of things, right? So there is also the Dutch influence
where you got all these ships and things like Cinderella and stuff like
that. Because the Dutch..
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : Yes,
the colonisers, they colonise the countries but the ladies got a lot
of free time, so they open their own factory and they also produce their
own Dutch batik. So there are a lot of stories on in terms of nationalities,
and we can relate batik to history like that, you know. So what batik
has evolved? Batik actually a rojak, you know. Especially if you
look at the Perisisan batik. It’s really rojak. It really represent
past. Just like Singaporeans, we are all mixed, know, and that is the
wealth of all these things, know? I mean, if you study the history of
Indonesia, it has like all the, what you call these, the struggle for
independence, and, know, the industries, and how the Dutch tried to
take the batik industries. And then during the war, when cloth are scarce,
they work very fine motif during the Japanese occupation, you know,
so that they can justify to the Japanese that all the Chinese are employed
and they needed to do the work, and they came out Bloomer Hokokai. Basically
the flower was, the flowers, hohokai flowers, it’s basically like
Japanese, Japanese bloom, you know. It’s to be sold to the Japanese
officers so the Japanese won’t persecute them because they are producing
things for the Japanese, right? And it’s really fine craftsmanship,
right? And then it’s, what you call this, religious influence
in all these things, you know. So batik is a diverse cloth, it has a
lot of effects on our time, culture & things like that. But in Singapore
we are not aware of these things. Even in Indonesia, they are losing
a lot of these things because people just see it as cloth and then if
you wear. But in Indonesia sometimes it’s the government intervention.
In Indonesia and Malaysia, the government demand that the civil service,
civil servants have to wear batik one day a week or (is it now) two
days in a week; every Friday or Thursday, something like that. So every
Friday you see very colourful; everybody’s wearing batik. Even in
Malaysia also. So you see government intervention will have something
like that. But in Singapore, somehow or rather, after Ong Teng Cheong,
there is so sad, I mean there is nobody tried make an effort to make
the same like this but now with this Little Nonya come to fame and everybody
start to ask about batik all over again. Oh and then, well what
can I say. Of course, now I am on the circuit going around from CC to
CC talking about the peranakan batik and how it evolved and a lot of
people like, they don’t know, to them batik is batik. But batik is
a property, batik is very expensive, and you know. And, sorry, I am
flipping the pages, may be disruptive but maybe there is something.
Ahh, you see, this is the mega mendung.
BJJJ :
Oooo
KD : Ahh,
See the cloud?
BJJJ :
Oh, the happy cloud. [laughs]
KD : Ahh,
the happy cloud. So this is the mega mendung. This is distinctively
Cirebon, this is the area on the northern coast of Java.
BJJJ :
When you said the Pekalongan batik, is it more like towards peranakan
or is like the entire diverse culture?
KD : Pekalongan
is a port, you know. It’s a port town. So it have got a lot of people,
all sorts of influence, they have the Dutch, you know. They are more
liberal, so it’s a very nice place. So, how you call this, but because
distinct there is this family Wee Swee Cho, which in my opinion, they
produce the finest batik in that period that even the Dutch practicianer
agree. Their batik is more practical so I even met up with [flips through
book], ooh yah, this is the lady, I met her. So you see, you see
like that their batik pieces are like works of art, they are exhibitions,
something like that. So this is the finest, this is a priced procession.
So you can see the bayu kerbaya, which is a Indonesian cloth can match
together with the batik. That’s what the peranakan wear and that’s
what the Indonesians wear. That’s what the Dutch lady wear when they
were in Indonesia. So, so the peranakan are just like that, the adaptation.
So now, if you, so let’s put it this way, Peranakan preference for
Pekalongan batik, that’s all. And in Pekalongan they still produce
the batik. And these families are still around and the grand daughters
are taking over the operation and some of them are struggling to survive
because the demand for batik is not very high. But now there are people
who know the value of batik and there are a lot of collectors who buy
them, and so these prices, how you call this? These pieces of batik
are like jewellery because at that time if you don’t have money you
can pawn your batik. And even today, if I get a Oey Soe Tjoen 3rd
generation, it costs me a $1,000. Yah, and if I can a first generation
Oey Soe Tjoen, it could even fetch up to $12,000. And people who know
these things they go around looking at old clothes. And sometimes they
get like really old clothes that people just literally give it to them
and then they just put on a smile [laughter from BJJJ] and go. And then
once they back home they go “Ooh, I got this. I got Oey Soe Tjoen
you know. I got this from this fellow and he sold it to me for only
$2.50”. Like garage sales. So [there are] all these interesting stories,
you know, about all these things. So, you know, the peranakan being
very affluent, of course they decorate themselves good jewellery, (good
food), good you know, wealth batik, like that, so that is the story
of it lar. And generally the pekalongan batik has got this thing call
the pagi sore. The pagi sore has a very interesting innovation of the
Javanese which is like … Let me see if there is sample. The pagi sore
is a long cloth and it has a diagonal segment and it’s like has got
[two sides], you can wear it day and night. Pagi sore means morning
and afternoon or morning and evening. It’s a diagonal, so if you turn
the cloth around it becomes. Let’s say the cloth one side is blue
colour and one side is pink colour. So in the morning you wear pink
colour and then in the afternoon you just take out your sarong, turn
it around, it becomes blue colour.
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : So
this kind of thing. It’s practical also. You have to see the king,
the workmanship that goes into batik, it’s amazing, you know. So,
this is really a prized procession. I mean …..OK now I was walking
in Orchard and I passed by Gucci, Chanel and all these Prada, and all
these prestigious shops you know, and its like you know how much they
sell their shoes and belts and stuff like that right. Back then,
these were equivalent to Gucci and Prada stuff, and you have the maker’s
name to it. And the Pekalongan batik is the finest you know, there is.
I think I saw a pagi sore just now…….
BJJJ :
I think it was half orange half dark blue
KD : Yah.
This is a pagi sore, ok. Can you see the diagonal here? one side
is pink and one side is peach. See? Peach. One pink and one peach. [0:28:08:21]But
this is a probably worn out piece the colour is faded. So it’s
like you can wear in the morning and evening, so it’s like you get
two for the price of one.
BJJJ :
[chuckles]
KD : You
can see all these dots, all these little dots, right, they are
made with tjantings, so these are all handmade. And so the difficulty
is that you have to make them one by one. This is a tjanting, you know.
. Can you imagine this water wax, and then you go. Can you see the how
fine that is? So they go tah tah tah tah tah tah…. So it can take
up to 2 years. So imagine, this is really fine workmanship, uhh. Fine
workmanship, the peranakan like it, that’s all. So peranakan has got
all these expensive stuff. Uhhh, right? So that answers your question?
OK
BJJJ :
So have you worked with many different schools before?
KD : Yeah,
I have worked with all sorts of schools. But basically I teach art and
craft. Batik is just a medium. In Singapore the practice of batik as
a art medium, something like oil painting, water colour, it’s just
a art. The history of it is beyond. My take on this is that, it is better
to get the kids interested in it you know, they might grow to love it
but eventually also they hate it because it is very difficult to do,
so … [laughs]
BJJJ :
So you think, like, that it is better that if you provide them with
like this knowledge you can help to this kind of, like, slow down the
loss of them?
KD : It’s
not slow down. I think now you have the peranakan museum, you have the
people like Baba Wee to champion the Peranakan culture, Katong Antique
House. Have you talked to them?
BJJJ :
Yah, we are planning to go down next week.
KD : Ahhh!
So, I mean, you can go down and see, he got a lot of these things. So,
you only have background and knowledge on batik? And you can see his
cupboards so full of them, some of them fragile, be careful don’t
touch them or he may chase you out.
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : No,
no, because it’s like very fragile you know. He collects all these
antiques and stuff like that. So, he acquired a bit of it over the years.
He has got cheap ones and old expensive ones, so I would say Peranakan
is something that needs to be documented and [has been] documented really
well and Baba Wee has a lot of collection.
BJJJ :
What do you think like field trip down to these places, like does it
actually help people to understand them better?
KD : No
this, trip to this place does not help people because one things is
this place is quite out, meaning it is quite difficult to access. I
myself know, I heard of this place, I read about it. So, it’s just
happen that so the Mayor of Pekalongan invited me last month. And it’s
like within 2 weeks we have to decide and we just have to drop everything
and go. And so I was fortunate because I was invited by the Mayor, so
the Museum of Pekalongan that we could have access to everything. But
if you were to go there, it’s just a sleepy town. You don’t
see anything. But if you have very keen eyes you will notice that there
are cloth plying the streets, there is chemical, know, normal trucks
but they are carrying these things know, and these things are moving
about. And everybody is a batik maker but they are all doing it behind
closed door, they won’t show you. It’s not like it’s so visible
you can see. So, going there wouldn’t help but I think people,
you see this is very expensive, the good ones are expensive and the
cheap ones are very cheap know so I suppose that’s where the problem
lies. If you have batik, it could be very cheap, you know, and it could
be very exclusive, and most people just doesn’t pay attention to realise
what it is. What can I say? I have some plan, if you want to do
this, just take initiative, and education and also practice. I think
the Little Nonya for what ever it is intended to do, has some effect,
so people do begin to notice these things. And the government should
really encourage people to look into our own. You see now the thing
ah, now you look at batik people say this is Indonesian, this is Malaysian,
and it’s very difficult for you to tag it to Singapore. That’s the
problem and then most people just give up. There’s even a lot, in
terms of painting, there’s even a lot of Chinese artist initially
started with batik. In 1952 someone Chuah Thean Teng, the first person
who ever exhibit batik and bring batik painting to the level of fine
art, is a Chinese guy, you see. And then we got a few good painters
in Singapore, Seah Kim Joo, Chieu Shuey Fook, Tay Chee Toh, they are
using batik but after a while they just give up, and eventually left
all the Malay practitioners because batik generally have got this
presupposition that it’s a Malay thing. So it’s difficult sometime
for government to say let’s all wear batik, know, so maybe it looks
very one-sided. This thing I don’t know, maybe this thing is very
tricky. But people should be able to choose what to wear. But now to
see qi pao in batik and stuff like that, and that’s a interesting
development. And a lot of them they are not aware of hoe to look at
quality batik. You know quality batik is very very expensive. And sometimes
now, in terms of trade, there is like miscommunication from the consumer
to the producer that sometime the batik is not as exclusive as this
but because it’s hand drawn, they also very expensive and people get
cheated, feel cheated, and these things don’t last very long, quality
standards all kind of these. You see, in order for this, if you want
to be successful in these kind of things, it takes a lot of effort from
government, from enterprise, from the people, from the cultures, the
celebrities, everything you know, it has to be a whole spectrum of practice,
right, then these these things can happen. Right now I don’t see it
happening. It’s ok. There are a few people who are interested to find
these books read them and enrol. Look me up, attend my class. I think
as long as there are some people who are interested and there is a museum
that documents all those things then we won’t lose it.
BJJJ :
But do you think is it possible for this interest in batik to grow?
KD : Yeah,
it will grow, it will grow eventually. But at least u have an incubation
that it is not gone it didn’t die, it is being preserved somewhere
but I think the preservation effort more need to be done because a lot
of people when we talk about batik it’s very presumptuous. They presume
things, so a lot of facts are not there. So that’s why I need your
help to, because you put it in writing, and I put it up, and more people
can learn we get the facts right, yeah that’s about there. Whether
it succeeds or not, whether it one day there will be a batik revival
or, or whatever, it all depends I can’t tell. One rap artist starts
to wear batik or J Lo runs around in sarong kebaya or something like
that, the next day the whole world got to wear sarong kebaya, know,
It’s just simple like that. If I got a lot of money, I will play like
that but I am not in that business. Yes?
BJJJ :
So you feel that like education, teach people about batik, will help
to preserve batik?
KD : Oh
yes, of course, the thing is that most importantly we must understand
who we are and be proud of our heritage you know and at least when you
go to western world, you see globalisation is not about losing yourself
you know. Globalisation actually strengthens who we are, and that’s
what people fail to realise. People say these are all the things of
the past and why do I need these in the age of the internet. Now, in
the age of the internet and in the age of the smaller world of what
we call the global village where it is so easy for you travel across
half of the world know, you know I cannot image myself going to the
States two times in a year or going to Japan going all over the world
so often many years ago. The Chinese immigrant went to Indonesia and
then that’s it, they were locked, they were stuck there for centuries,
you know generations after generations and never go back to China you
know. Now you can have what you call this, breakfast in Singapore and
lunch in Chiang Mai, something like that, I think one of the airlines
have something that kind of tag. So you see what you bring to the world
community, what? If you are not aware of who you are, what can you bring
to a broader audience? And that is the sad thing when I see Singaporeans,
most people laugh at me sometimes, they say that I am backwards, know,
that I am trying to relive the past glories, something like that. I
am just interested in these things it’s because I find that this is
something that is not presented properly. It is something that we have
that we don’t know about. A lot of people will be more interested
in in in modern art, in contemporary something like that. Yeah, I am
also interested in that but you must not neglect who you are, and then
when you go abroad, you are stronger. You know when I was in the States,
people respect me for what I do, my knowledge in this area rather than
what I’m trying to do as what they do, not so impressive, you know.
So in this global era we should actually look back at this, it’s not
it’s not, at least in my opinion. At a lot of people think that globalisation
actually dilutes who you are but actually it should work to the opposite.
BJJJ :
For example, like, government intervention, like some forms, like you
know the recent Singapore Biennale? Do you think like if we promote
batik as one of the basic art forms, do you think it will attract people?
KD :
The Singapore Biennale has it’s own criteria, and culture is not very
high on its agenda so I wouldn’t say. It all depends on the petitioners
themselves. I must be the one to push it and convince them to take it
on. So, it’s not their fault for not presenting me because I don’t
make an effort or any artist for that matter, know. Batik is a medium
of art but sometimes it is carried forward wrongly then it becomes a
craft. This is another long debate so, I won’t be so fast to blame
people whoever it is, but I just saying that even something like the
Biennale should look at the essence of the people instead of trying
to be global so much to the point that anybody who can pretend to look
global will say “There I’m safe. I’m safe.” [laughs]
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : Anymore?
I just glanced through at your questions, I didn’t really read it.
I am not good at exams and stuff like that.
BJJJ :
Do you know, like, how much batik actually relates to Singapore’s
history specifically?
KD : Well,
it’s a bit. The first western to write about history, can you guess
who?
BJJJ :
Sir Stamford Raffles?
KD : Yes
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : Sir
Stamford Raffles was the governor of java and in his book, I think was
“Monumental Works”, I can’t remember the title. He wrote the about
batik, so technically he was the westerner to introduce batik to the
western world, know. So, so that’s what link. The second, this is
also a trading centre, where trade takes place. Cloth, they need cloth
to come to, to, to make the batik and this is the place where Arab street
is still selling the batik and where things is distributed and things
like that. Even today, the dyes actually come through Singapore and
being distributed to the batik makers in Malaysia and Indonesia. So
you can see Singapore has been playing a part, but nobody knew about
it cost it’s just another shop pushing commodity and nobody sees it.
Sometimes it’s like when you do a research, students always ask me
this question is like because you assume the answer the “Oh, this
should be forward.” No this is a fact, the truth is not very pleasant
to swallow, you know. The truth is just what it is. When you do research
you just searching for something you must have a natural mind, things
doesn’t have a happy ending, I would say that like it is, [you] know.
People used to wear batik. My mum, I mean older Malay ladies wear batik.
That’s what my mum wear. And I could talk to my mum about batik and
she could talk to me about things as a girl or as she was growing up,
know, and her prized possession, and terms will come up whether is it
durian pecah or belas tumpal. Belas tumpal is split rice or broken durian,
these are names of motifs, you know which roughly translate to the area
where the batik comes from. Indonesia is very big you know. Mind you.
Do you know how much is the size of Indonesia compared to Singapore?
BJJJ :
2000 island or something??
KD : There
is 2000, you know, in terms of land mass. I mean in terms of land mass.
It is 2000 times the land of Singapore you know. So Singapore is literally
one little red dot you know, and so can you imagine that to have things that
are hundreds of kilometres away? (This is my assistant, so sorry)…
so…so it is a lot of, how you call this, …(Kelvin, still on time,
ok…. [laughs]) so, we got either back then something from Japan, France,
Italy or something like that. The older generation wear it but now the
middle-aged ladies don’t even know it because they don’t wear it,
so they can’t even tell the quality of it. So the business has suffered,
[thus] they don’t bring in quality stuff and then, nobody continue
to wear it. So even if I continue to educate, people will come and go
“Oh, oh, that’s like that”. And then that’s it. The practice
is not there. So, I don’t know so like I say the Little Nonya is the
best phenomenal that ever happened and people are just interested in
it. I am very busy now. So really we have so many workshops, batik
workshops. People are just curious what Peranakan batik [is]. Actually
it’s just batik that every body in this part was wearing. That that
everybody was wearing then but unfortunately this was not continued
because people prefer Levis and stuff like that, but what can we do,
right? I mean, so it’s not going to be a happy ending.
BJJJ :
As part of our project work right, we are supposed to come up with a
few plans that will help to conserve batik. One of them is fashion show
that will incorporate batik in the fashion. How effective do you think
that will be in helping conserving batik?
KD : That
will be effective because the people who make cloth are the designers
right. The thing is that the schools themselves give very low priority
to batik, they are basically a few fashion schools in Singapore. It’s
again on the surface only, they don’t go deep enough, you know. They
don’t bother to know more about these. So if a student were to touch
on batik, it’s only on the surface. But anyway, back then when Ong
Teng Cheong, late Ong Teng Cheong’s tried to do this orchid motif
day, they had an annual batik show, or rather an annual orchid motif
show or something like that that kind of effort. When you have that
kind of effort and when the designers start to have fashion shows, that’s
a good start, lah. And so, it is easier for educate the designers and
the designers being educated about this they knew how to put out these
motifs and stuff like that. Like in Malaysia they have the Piala Seri
Endon (Kuala Lumpur International Batik Invention and Exhibition). I
don’t know if you go into my blog, it’s a bit deeper. You search
there under my search klib. So, it’s KL International Batik, and they
are going to have another one in December. So they have the Seri Endon
and Seri Enterpris which is basically the designers were reaching out
and really fight and in the fashion show. So, that’s a good thing.
Technically to win that is very prestigious, and all designers participating
only go through understanding of batik, you know, to go through that
effort. Around here everybody just assume they know things. So, I don’t
know that’s the way it is. So, fashion show is one good thing.
BJJJ :
Do you think, it will help to bring it into the general public, more
people wear it, like bring it more into the modern society?
KD : Yeah.
It will, because designers will introduce things and innovate stuff
like I cite again last year’s Piala Seri winner was like, we all disagree
with that, like “what gone wrong”, but yeah on hindsight the judges
were right, the judges wanted to push something that was like very untraditional,
something unorthodox, something very new, something that can breakthrough
you know, new ground. That thing that doesn’t look like batik, looks
like splashes of colours, and so [that is] interesting, and so the designers,
you see you are you are putting a task to a smaller group of people
rather than putting into like the whole masses and there is no point
to begin with, and if the government were to force everyone to wear
batik also no, right? Maybe the government should give me a lot of money
and I will make it happen. [laughs] Don’t write this? OK.
BJJJ :
[laughs]
KD : Take
a picture of me and these girls. [laughs] OK. Boy also. [laughs]
BJJJ :
I remember visiting this other blog once, I think she was a student
working on conservation of batik also…
KD :
Really? Which school?
BJJJ :
SMU is it?
KD : SMU
or NTU?
BJJJ :
SMU.
KD : Yeah,
it’s the research project. But I don’t remember where it is now.
Sars or something like that is it.
BJJJ :
Sars?
KD : The
website is Sars something and she cited my statement right?
BJJJ :
Yeah, yeah.
KD : That
student is in NTU.
BJJJ :
OK. Ok. Sorry. Well, she mentioned that batik workshops are generally
quite expensive is it because of the price of the material?
KD : Well,
the thing is because she went to the wrong person. I told her to come
and see me but she didn’t come and so she was fooled by people you
know; people who jealously protect their thing. Like I say, I am open
provided you behave that all. That’s why I meet students to do all
these kinds of things. Seriously I am open – I want these things to
be know. But just that students tend to misbehave, they come to my office
late and they make a mess of the office and all sorts of things. You
are good students so I can talk a lot of things. Some students are really
crap and ask stupid questions like those that are all over my blog.
Anyway. Yes, it’s true, it’s really difficult, because many people
don’t know me. Even for me if you come to my workshop in NAFA, it
will cost you $380 for 8 sessions. So now, there are a lot of people
who cannot afford it but there is always someone who can. So we do it
there. And I am not rich doing that because it barely covers cost because
there is not enough scale, there is not enough people interested in
doing these things. So that’s why now, last week we started this thing
that every Thursday night I am here and anybody interested you come
here and still they have to pay, see, because cost of things is expensive
here. But we have got a program subsidised by the National Arts Council,
and that’s why we are going to schools, me and my company and a few
other companies. We go to school and we teach them and that’s pretty
affordable. It’s just that some people are very unrealistic thinking
can be got for free. It takes a lot effort to run a batik workshop.
It’s not easy you know. First of all, you need to train the technicians.
When I say train technicians is not training technicians. My instructors
I call them technicians because 1st of all they must understand
all these safety issues and a lot of they materials that need to be
managed and things like that and a lot of accidents happen when because
you handle things like molten wax. Like I say when people just assume
things, they get it wrong. And that’s why accidents happen,
so it’s dangerous. So, the cost is pretty high, know, and it’s not
easy to get material and stuff like that, and I even sourced some things
outside, yeah, it’s very very high, you know, because there is a lot
of hype to it and there is a lot of things the consumers don’t know.
So, well, she’s right.
BJJJ :
In that sense, it you make batik workshops more affordable for the general
public…..
KD : Then,
who is going to conduct it?
BJJJ :
but then would that compromise on the quality?
KD : No,
it is not compromise on the quality. It’s all dollars and sense, in
the sense that, ok. You see you must understand you need to look at
two sides. Ok. It’s affordable to you but is it lucrative enough or
feasible for the instructor or the company doing it ? You see it must
cover costs. Ok so like me, I am doing this, right? How much are you
paying me? Do you know how much I am worth? An hour? Do you know what
is my opportunity cost?
BJJJ :
Oh yeah.
KD: So,
so it’s right. You get what I mean yeah, I am doing this for free,
right? So that’s the thing, also when I deal with students, students
always don’t understand the economies of art. When it comes to art,
art is also never respected, so artist must start to put their hands
down and say that things cost money, right? You don’t go to the doctor
and say talk, (like many minutes now?) for 45min for free right? So
you see what I mean right? Art is a profession, and when I start to
charge people don’t understand that. So we need a compromise for me
to educate people, you need to understand that for craftsmen and artists,
this is a profession and Singapore is generally an expensive place.
I am not supposed to talk money to students about but I can’t help
it. I go to teach in a lot of schools and generally students, because
you are young so you never think about all these issues. It’s not
an issue about things being expensive. Things that are expensive, like
the NAC has got grants and community centres and stuff like that, so
it’s quite affordable. Actually it’s quite a cheap thing to do,
but it’s just that it’s difficult, it’s tedious, it’s not easy
to do. OK? No other questions? Do a nice one. Spread it to all
to your school.
